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Remind me of foolish children fighting over whose imaginary friend is better.
comments questions?
comments questions?
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, May 26, 2009 - 10:51 AMI don't know what any thing reminds you of - - or why.
But I do know that no matter the reason for it, war is usually a lethal event for some folks.
I'd hazard a guess that whether you approve or not is meaningless to the participants.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 1:25 PMI can't see Socrates. He must have been imaginary.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 1:39 PM"Remind me of foolish children fighting over whose imaginary friend is better. "
I think Oscar Wilde defined a holy war as a bloody battle to determine who has the best imgainary friend. Even though there usually are political or economic issues behind such wars the idea of killing others int he name of a non existent Jesus or Allah is absurd. Religion has caused more suffering to more people than any other single idea. I take heart knowing that in some parts of the world religion is losing it's power as a means of social control.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 7:35 PMIt does not matter much at all that religious trappings cloak a war effort.
The undeniable fact is that at least two sides to some dispute are willing to fight and die for whatever it is that drives them. Seeking to diminish it by mocking some religious aspect is missing the point,. They 'd be at each other's throats gods or no gods.
The blood would flow just the same.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 10:43 PM"Religion has caused more suffering to more people than any other single idea"
Oft stated myth from anti-religious bigots. Politics has caused far more suffering. Even nationalism, as a subcategory of politics,has. Just two atheist leaders (Stalin and Mao) alone murdered more people than all that died in history's bloodiest war, World War II. History's religious wars pale in comparison to that kind of bloodshed. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 7:12 AMActually it is not clear that Mao or Stalin were atheists. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 8:32 AM>>>>>>>>>Actually it is not clear that Mao or Stalin were atheists. <<<<<<
But surely we can agree that they weren't religious leaders, right? -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 12:55 PM<< they weren't religious leaders >>
They were more like *loss* leaders, but the Cultural Revolution practically deified Mao and it's been argued that the posthumous Lenin cult had FAR more to do with ritual and concepts of saintliness in Russian Orthodoxy than it did with any kind of Marxism. Indeed, the Stalin cult may be seen as worship of a living god, certainly comparable to Caligula and rather less honest.
So the question isn't as clear cut as all that. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fri, June 5, 2009 - 11:31 PMIf one waters down the definition of religion to be so broad as to encompass political cults of personalities, then the criticism of religion becomes more a criticism of blind fanatacism, rather than of religion per se.
Furthermore, it's not so clear cut that many of the religious wars were really religious wars, rather than wars for more pedestrian political motives such as land, power and wealth, only given a religious spin so as to exploit the faithful. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 8:30 PM<< the definition of religion to be so broad as to encompass political cults of personalities,
Faith is faith and God is (among other things) whatever people worship as God.
<< then the criticism of religion becomes more a criticism of blind fanatacism, rather than of religion per se. >>
I'd argue that not all criticism would be affected, but, either way, it's probably a more fruitful line of debate than the way the issue is customarily framed. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, June 24, 2009 - 10:41 PM"Faith is faith and God is (among other things) whatever people worship as God."
But all faith is not religious faith. If religion is watered down to mean anything people passionately believe in that they can't prove to be true, then everyone has faith (except people withjout passions I suppose), and thus ALL wars, bloodshed, crimes, evil deeds were done by "religious" people, since by such a broad definition just being human makes one "religious.". But that would make the charge specifically against religion meaningless.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 2:56 PM"Actually it is not clear that Mao or Stalin were atheists. "
No True Scotsman fallacy. One could just as easily say that the leaders who led religious wars were doing it for political rather than religious reasons. And given the widespread oppression of religion by Stalin and Mao, they were certainly anti-religious leaders. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 9:08 PM("Actually it is not clear that Mao or Stalin were atheists. ")
On the contrary, I think most Marxist dictators have been leaders of chiliastic ideological cults. They believed that rigorously followed Marxism would result in an earthly Eden. Moreover, their followers believed it, too.
As Andrew Janos, one of my political science professors, used to point out, most true revolutionary movements are millenial in nature -- the leaders of the Terror in France were; Oliver Cromwell was; and so were the followers of Karl Marx (and his disciples, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc.) were ... Even Adolf Hitler was a millenialist: He actually called his regime the "Thousand Year Reich"....
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 9:11 PMRemember that Marx criticized religion because it blinded the proletariat to its true class nature and kept it from reaching its true revolutionary potential -- which was the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the eventual withering away of the state in a Marxist nirvana.
Religion was not outlawed under communism. Not in any of its various incarnations in the 20th Century.
OTHER religions were outlawed...
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 9:11 PMBoth Marx and Mao were atheists. . -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 10:29 PM{Both Marx and Mao were atheists.}
My point is, regardless of whether either believed in God, both believed in a specific religion. -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 10:29 PMAnd I believe RELIGIOUS WARS is the title of this thread, not God wars...
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 2:22 AM<< most Marxist dictators have been leaders of chiliastic ideological cults>>
Indeed.
This is what comes of taking historical materialism as a blueprint to a better Jesus. There's no "Theory of the Vanguard Party" in Marx, nor any "socialism in one country," cult of the leader, indoctrination through sophistry, worshiping corpses or any the rest of that appalling claptrap the world rightly recoils from. Almost every communist dictator turned out to be his own midget deity, in imitation of Stalin.
Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Mao aren't all one monolith, in any event.
A way to depoliticize the point somewhat is to ask if one thinks Emperors Caligula and Claudius rate as gods, since they were worshiped as such while alive.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, June 24, 2009 - 10:46 PMJust because one believes that their agenda will result in a thousand year utopia on earth, doesn't mean that they believe that utopia to be of a religious sort. "Chiliasm" deals specifically with a millennialist belief regarding Christ's return. I see nothing in Stalin's or Mao's belief systems that tied them to such specifically religious commitments.
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Ah yes
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 1:55 AM<Oscar Wilde defined a holy war as a bloody battle to determine who has the best imgainary friend. >
a well read person. Good to run in to
<Religion has caused more suffering to more people than any other single idea.>
I agree, however I do not blame religion. I blame the people. People in nature can not handle many ideas, and fuck them up constantly. -
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Re: Ah yes
Fri, June 5, 2009 - 11:34 PM"<Religion has caused more suffering to more people than any other single idea.>
I agree"
Except again it's an historically false myth, since desire for land caused exponentially far more suffering.
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 9:23 PMTo quote George Santayana (or Plato?) "Only the dead have seen the end of war." -
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Re: RELIGIOUS WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 7:20 AMExcept for Russia taking over eastern Europe so that no more wars will be fought on Russian soil, and China taking over Tibet which they believe is Chinese...who have they invaded.....understand that Afganistan had a pro socalistic government and asked Russia to intervene. They've supported various stituation and even sent advisors same with Britian and the US.
All wars are fought for who gets what, religion is used to stir the masses into war...like the New Crusade of Christians and Muslims in the Middle East. Its about who gets what.
From what I understand reading an article of an interview with Stalins Daughter that J. Stalin went to confession wkly. I don't know if thats true but the daughter claimed this to be true....I really do not know all the facts. But I would not be suprised.
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