Operation ABC Bitch-Slap

*************My understanding of what triggered this (over) response by the authorities was a phone call from a 14 year old girl who was being beaten mercilessly by her 57 year old husband. I agree that the response was over the top but these marriages are being forced on these young girls and then they are essentially held captive in a compound as brood mares. ******************

As it turns out it is starting to look like the call was a hoax made my a person with no affiliation with that community or with the FLDS in general who was in another state when she placed the call.

However take arguendo, the possibility of such a call happening and being real.
1.) The police have the telephone number displayed on their equipment and you can’t block your number when calling 911.

2.) The police needed an address. The pleas for help from a person claiming unlawful activity which person is in a location even if that person asking for help does not own the building is adequate license for the police to enter that specific building without a warrant. They should have gone directly to the person asking for help. The "Community Caretaking Doctrine" combined with the exigency of a person asking for help while articulating a crime covers that completely. The cops get to break in that door and it is OK. But not every door in town. Not the neighbor's door.

3.) The police are not authorized ( and should never be) to impugn an entire community ( or apartment building or rooming house) sweeping un-named persons and individual domiciles into the scope of a warrant that grants them entrance as to one particular domicile. The scope of the warrant can not be expanded based on police opinion or desire. The police have to go back to the judge to get a warrant's scope expanded.
………………(i) Take for example the information about the bedding in the temple. It was inconclusive and yielded no information at all about who might have used it or when or for what purpose. All that provided them was grounds to investigate further not ransack every home in the community.


What the police did was to deprive every single member of that community of their civil rights violating the 4th Amendment of the Constitution and tearing families apart on the word of an unknown informant whose veracity was never checked. The law in the US is that no anonymous informant’s information is valid to obtain a warrant unless that informant’s information is so highly particularized and detailed that the facts given become proved out as the police seek to validate the data.

EX: I telephone the police and tell them (anon) that You tried to sell me drugs in you house and I describe the house the door the view from the doorway onto the first room it opens onto and where the drugs are kept. I tell 'e,m you are clever and hide 'em behind the walls and in secret compartments.
If the police try to execute a warrant based on that information they have some problems.
They can do it but they need to validate the information I gave ‘em. I can swear under oath and appear before ar judge or the police can present my sworn affidavit to the judge. If I lied I am in the shitter big time~!! I face criminal charges and you will sue my ass. So the known informant has the indicia of reliability.

The anonymous informant can only get that indicia of reliability based on the cumulative additive result of the data he provodes leading the police one step at a time to come to the realization that the informant is telling the truth because the particulars provided begin to add up and bear fruit.

It is different if the police know who I was because I would have a penal interest in telling the truth. As an anonymous caller I am entirely unaccountable for the police tearing your house apart looking for your drugs.

But if I were able to do it anonymously:
I can wait the statutory period ( a few years) and then come and laugh in your face. "HA HA the pigs tore your house apart ripped open the walls , sliced up all the furniture, and shattered all your grand mothers heirloom china, broke up your flooring ripped down the ceilings held your children at gun point. And when they were done, you were left with nothing~!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA I sent ‘em there HA HA HA HA HA "


Wouldn't that be fun?


***********This morning I listened to a radio interview with a woman named Debbie Palmer who escaped a similar compound in Arizona with her 6 children. The reason she decided to leave was that her eldest daughter was being forced into a marriage with a 60+ year old elder in the church.************

I have head similar stories. That it may have happen as she says (and the veracity of her tale remains untested) does not mean that it happens on such a scale that EVERY member of the FLDS is doing it. And under law EVERY person in the nation is entitled to the full panoply of the rights guaranteed under the Constitution.

That it may happen at all to one person - or a few - is not a reason to up-end an entire community.

It’d be like the police hearing about an abused kid in my little town and deciding that EVERY home needs to be ripped apart to make sure they got it all.

No it would not merely be like that it was exactly that. It was exactly that the police violated every one’s rights in that community and they did it solely because the police hate people who stand apart and hold themselves aloof. They hate it when you tint your windows or pull your shades.

They didn’t conduct an investigation. This is another problem. Why didn’t they?
I know why they didn’t.


************** someone has got to put a stop to this slavery and servitude to the sexual desires of a handful of old men. The young men are sent out to set up new compounds and they are given a few "starter" wives. *********

Where this may be the practice you ( and Ms Palmer) are entirely correct. The way to do it is to infiltrate the FLDS with police agents just exactly like thy do with the mob the KKK and outlaw biker gangs etc.
There is one reason and one reason only why police don’t do it with groups like the FLDS. It is Ego.

Ego. Infiltrating the mob or the KKK or the Hells Angles shows you off as having boatloads of MACHISMO~!! Woo Hoo~!! Getting on your knees and praying to Baby Geebus and living a humble life subordinate to some pack of whiny assed religious zealots has absolutely no macho glamor so the police don’t even think of sending their people to infiltrate. Seriously, the idea doesn’t occur to them. They aren’t rejecting it out of hand, they aren’t having the idea in the first place because the things they’d have to do, the personalities they’d have to adopt have no tough guy glamor.

This whole “forced child bride” problem is the result of the police failing entirely to do their jobs. Only infiltration can break through the insularity and secrecy of these cults and get at verifiable facts.
The unanswerable question is: Whether it is true as the few who talk about it say it is – or are they merely histrionics who are impugning the whole lot of FLDS as pedophiles based on their personal rage and frustrations~?


********Hearing the story from this woman on the radio today made me realize how sick some religions can really make people.********

Yah but can you say that as to all the members or just the ones who do it~?
And of course one is still left with the problem os having to take this one person's word for everything. Her account remains un-tested.
Ya see all you have is the world of a very angry person. It’s grounds to investigate but, not invade.


**********It is a blemish that we share - one of the compounds is here in Canada at Bountiful, British Columbia. Some of the children in Texas are Canadians from that compound who were taken down to Texas to serve as fresh blood. Some of the Texan children are in Bountiful. I believe it is a major crisis because it comes up against our freedom of religion and free speech laws. **********

Sounds horrifying. Why are the police not infiltrating? That's their job~!! I should think that such allegations would have the police infiltrating the FLDS by the score.

**********A line needs to be drawn somewhere in this issue. Maybe an age limit for consent to marriage??? ************

Yah this is true. Ya can’t get at the problem while one is suffering from a complete absence of verifiable facts.

As it stands in the USA you can’t “marry” more than one person. So if you have a lawful spouse and you take on another in the FLDS, the so called subsequent “marriages” are not marriages under law. There is no marriage license issued by the state. The marriage is a spiritual one and under the law that is perfectly OK so long as the participants are not under the legal age of consent. So the law actually has a perfectly valid mechanism to address the age problem.

If you are taking underage second spouses and having sex with them you are committing rape. That’s the law in every state.

The secular analogy to the FLDS “multiple marriage” is more like group living as multiple partners. Maybe cohabiting polyamory? The only laws that might be brought to bear against such a secularly based group-pesudo-marriage are those in the various municipalities that regulate how many unrelated persons can co-occupy a living unit.

*******As for your plant idea, I agree except that these people live in compounds not cities. You can't infiltrate as they check the bloodlines of anyone they let in, according to Ms. Palmer. **********

Oh~!! The insularity and smallness of the communities makes it perfect for infiltration. All you need is police agents to go through the process of joining up and become part of it all for a few years at a stretch just exactly like they do with the mob the KKK and the outlaw bikers. You don’t need DNA. All you need is to have your agents return and present the information gathered to obtain warrants. You merely need credible unbiased data sufficient to get a warrant. That is the whole reason for infiltration.

And infiltrating the FLDS would require that the agents adopt a FLDS zealot religious mentality and taking the time to become trusted. Just exactly like it does to infiltrate any other insular group.

*******Obama's past is partially a mystery and leaving aside the religious bit about Rev. Wright, it's probably worth going into deeper.*********

I want all of it. I don’t want his Pre-K records I want all of his adult life on display.

************The complaint i have about the Disney Debate was that there were no serious questions, it was rehashing of stupid things that had already been done to death. I wanted new material to mull over.**********

ERGO the questions: From my perspective Obama has articulated a series of lies about his pastor of 20 years.
Obama said:
1.) There was nothing controversial about the reverend’s remarks.
- - - (when that lie didn’t wash he then said) - - -
2.) I wasn’t there when any controversial remarks were made.
- - - - (when that lie didn’t wash he then said) - - -
3.) (VIA his chief strategist) Obama apologizes if any one took the remarks wrongly and was offended.
- - - - (when that lie didn’t wash he then said) - - -
4.) I repudiate the what you wrongly took the remarks to say but, I won’t condemn the man.

And Obama thinks that crap disposed of the matter? That makes it all the more interesting and germane. If he has to lie about it ( three times) and pretend that every one is wrong about what the remarks mean then, Obama has a hell of a lot more explaining to do.


*******Clinton is just same old, same old bought-and-paid-for politician, in my opinion.**********

Did ya know that she renditioned a US citizen to be tortured by the Brazilian secret police? The guy had committed only one wrong: He proved to be an embarrassment to the Clintons. Google “Peter Paul”

******Although either Democrat would be better than McCain who lacks any shred of character.*********

Ya know statements like that absolutely need to be substantiated. Otherwise they are just stupid shit that is made up and slung against a wall.


********Being documented in Europe for a two year period when he was "supposedly" in a prison of war camp, for starters.*********

Links please. Remember, I could just as easily claim that I saw you in one of those Caribbean child sex paradises on a beach with a 10 year old face down in your lap.

If I made such a claim wouldn’t you demand (& rightly so) that I back it up or shut the hell up~!!!?!?!?!??

AND you wouldn’t think it at all compelling that I trotted out my Canadian News paper articles about Canadian pedophiles in the sex trade as though it some how referred to you. That wouldn’t be good enough would it~?

So back up your claims~!!



******** Have you heard of any of his fellow prison mates standing up for McCain?********

Nope.

*********Most of them have said he is a complete sham who sold them down the river for the little comforts he accepted from the enemy for himself.*********

Back up your claim. Show me the money.

********* Then when he comes home, he ditches his bride for a rich girl.*******

Isn’t this a tad unrelated to anything at all.


************ Later we find out he has fathered children in Vietnam.********

Back up your claim. Show me the DNA, show me something that can be verified.



********McCain hasn't a shred of decent character, at all. Not one iota. In fact, I'd go so far to say he'd be worse than Bush which is hard to believe is possible.*******

Back up your claims. Show me verifiable information. All I have on the man is a whole lifetime of public service during which I haven’t heard anything ugly.
That’s a lot of years and a lot of conduct over time. If he were the asshole you imagine him to be don’t ya think he’d have manifested this “asshole inside”~??

But unlike most tribers I took you at your word. that is to say I didn't just up and believe whatever ugly thing you said about the man but, I undertook to google around a little bit.

I found this statement about the leaflets that started the nasty rumors about McCain in the POW camp:

"Nothing could be further from the truth. I know because I was there," Orson Swindle, a retired Marine lieutenant colonel and former prisoner of war, said in a statement about the mailing from Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain."
Here: tinyurl.com/ytmoym

Where you can also find this statement:
" Kiley's group cites as evidence a May 1973 U.S. News & World Report article by McCain in which he said he realized, on his third or fourth day of captivity after his plane was shot down in 1967, that his knee was so swollen the blood might pool in it and kill him. So he offered to give military information to his captors in exchange for medical treatment."

In the article, McCain said he told the story to make the point that the North Vietnamese only gave medical treatment to POWs if they thought they were going to get something in return. He did not say that he went through with his end of the deal.

Kiley claims information McCain gave to the North Vietnamese led to an increase in U.S. planes being shot down. "

Jerry Kiley is a politically motivated player. He is an ardent hater of all things Vietnamese.
“Vietnam veteran Jerry Kiley, a longtime POW/MIA activist, threw a glass of red wine on Khai's vacated seat in front of Khai shortly after the prime minister rose to speak to diners in a ballroom at the Mayflower Hotel. The wine, which Kiley said symbolized innocent blood that continues to be spilled by the brutal and godless communist regime, splashed onto McCain, a former Vietnam POW, but did not strike Khai.”
Here: tinyurl.com/5d7ect
And: tinyurl.com/53rdq6

However Kiley has a different version of that event:
“McCain is the best friend the Viet cong ever had. Just ask Bui Tin, a Vc specializing in murder and torture, who McCain hugged and laughed with when he visited in the 90s, or McCain’s best friend Phan Van Khai whom he honored at a banquet on June 21, 2005 at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, DC. Some red wine was spilled at that banquet, if I remember correctly.”
Here: tinyurl.com/4wcka2


Other POWS who served with McCain call Kiley a conspiracy theorist and a liar:
Here: tinyurl.com/4nspjd

Apparently Kiley is angry with McCain because of McCain’s having come to terms with the Vietcong and forgiven them. For that Kiley hates McCain and will do anything to hurt him.
tinyurl.com/3g4ov2
tinyurl.com/3hfh8k



Kiley has been arrested on federal charges for stalking the Vietnamese when they are in theUSA:

“Vietnam veteran and longtime POW/MIA activist Jerry Kiley was arrested by the U.S. Secret Service Tuesday evening and charged with a Federal crime. Agents charged Kiley under Title l8, United States Code, Section 112(B).
After a night and day in jail, Kiley was finally presented for arraignment to a federal judge in Washington's U.S. District Court. The judge set July 8, 2005 as trail date. Kiley was released after signing an agreement not to go anywhere around the White House, or Communist Vietnam's prime minister, Phan Van Khai and his delegation while they are still in the United States. “
Here: tinyurl.com/4coaak

Kiley hates John Kerry too: tinyurl.com/3gb4zs

Kiley’s hatred of McCain has driven him to invent a tale that has McCain conspiring with the Viet Cong to hide the bodies of MIA veterans. The guy is a crazy man.
tinyurl.com/5lrfdv